HOST: Welcome to PowerUP, a podcast show hosted by Maurizio Di Paolo Emilio that brings life to some of the stories on power electronics technologies and products featured on powerelectronicsnews.com and through other AspenCore Media publications. In this show, you’ll hear both engineers and executives discuss news, challenges, and opportunities for power electronics in markets such as automotive, industrial, and consumer. Here is your host, editor-in-chief of powerelectronicsnews.com and eeweb.com, Maurizio Di Paolo Emilio.
MAURIZIO DI PAOLO EMILIO: Electric mobility is a fast-growing business especially in the domains of energy, batteries, and thermal-management design. EVs are an environmentally friendly alternative to their common petrol-powered counterparts, but they lack one crucial feature: convenience. EV infrastructure and battery capacity are not comparable with current vehicles. While there seems to be a petrol station everywhere, EV charging stations are not yet common, which means that drivers have to make detailed charging plans well in advance of their journey. An efficient (and sustainable) infrastructure with fast charging and a long-range battery will contribute to the success of EVs. In this podcast we will analyze the battery technology with Vincent Pluvinage, CEO and co-founder of OneD Battery Sciences which has developed SINANODE, a set of technologies that “supercharge” the amount of energy stored, speed of charging, power delivered to EV batteries. The proprietary and patented technology increases energy density and lifetime while reducing costs of EV batteries. Let’s talk with Vincent.
MAURIZIO DI PAOLO EMILIO：電動車是一項快速成長的業務，尤其是在能源、電池和熱管理設計領域。電動車是其常見的汽油動力同類產品的環保替代品，但它們缺乏一個關鍵特徵：便利性。電動車基礎設施和電池容量無法與當前車輛相媲美。雖然似乎到處都有加油站，但電動車充電站還不常見，這意味著司機必須在出行前做好詳細的充電計劃。具有快速充電和遠程電池的高效率(永續)基礎設施將有助於電動車的成功。在本播客中，我們將與OneD Battery Sciences的執行長暨共同創辦人Vincent Pluvinage一起分析電池技術，該公司開發了 SINANODE，這是一套「增壓」儲存能量、充電速度、輸送到 EV 電池之功率的技術。該專利技術提高了能量密度和壽命，同時降低了電動車電池的成本。讓我們和Vincent談談。
Hi Vincent. Thank you so much for joining us. How are you?
VINCENT PLUVENAGE: Very good. Thank you, Maurizio.
MAURIZIO DI PAOLO EMILIO: So before we go in deep, our community would like to get to know you a bit more. So can you tell us a bit about your back story? Tell us more about you.
MAURIZIO DI PAOLO EMILIO:在我們深入討論之前，我們的社群希望更了解您。那麼你能告訴我們一些關於你的背景故事嗎？告訴我們更多關於你的資訊。
VINCENT PLUVENAGE: Well, I was born in Africa, then grew up in Paris and Brussels. I was Belgian. I’m still Belgian, but I became American later on. I studied applied physics in Belgium before going to the US to do a PhD. My first job was AT&T Bell Labs on the East Coast. I then moved to Silicon Valley back in 1987, and then created a number of companies. The first one I took public in 93, and the second one I took public in 99. I’m also an inventor. I have over 100 patents to my name. And for the last 20 years, I’ve been investing and spending my time on new technologies that are patented and can be licensed. And for the last ten years, I’ve been working with our CTO, Dr. Yimin Zhu who I met in 2012, and decided after spending a year talking to him to essentially buy the project he was working on since 2007 together with a group of private investors, and help make that technology available for the mass market in lithium ion batteries.
VINCENT PLUVENAGE: 嗯，我出生在非洲，然後在巴黎和布魯塞爾長大。我是比利時人。我仍然是比利時人，但後來我變成了美國人。在去美國攻讀博士學位之前，我在比利時學習了應用物理學。我的第一份工作是美國東岸的 AT&T 貝爾實驗室。然後我在 1987 年搬到矽谷，然後創立了許多公司。第一個是93年上市的，第二個是99年上市的。我也是發明家。我名下擁有超過 100 項專利。在過去的 20 年裡，我一直在投資和花時間在獲得專利和授權的新技術上。在過去的十年裡，我一直在與我們的技術長Yimin Zhu博士合作，我在 2012 年認識了他，在與他談了一年之後，我決定從本質上購買他自 2007 年以來與一個團隊一起開展的項目私人投資者，並幫助將該技術用於鋰離子電池的大眾市場。
MAURIZIO DI PAOLO EMILIO: Great, thank you. So let’s start with the electric vehicle, the topic of today, electric vehicles and related problems with the batteries. So what’s the market for electric vehicle batteries now? But in particular, what’s the best material in terms of cost and recycling now? Can you tell me what are the next trends? And in terms of demands of battery chemistries worldwide, how do you see the market evolving?
MAURIZIO DI PAOLO EMILIO:太好了，謝謝。那麼讓我們從電動車開始，今天的話題，電動車和電池的相關問題。那麼現在電動車電池的市場情況如何？但特別是，現在在成本和回收方面最好的材料是什麼？你能告訴我下一個趨勢是什麼嗎？就全球電池化學品的需求而言，您如何看待市場發展？
VINCENT PLUVENAGE: Yeah, so it’s pretty well known that whether in the United States, in Europe, or in China, the sales of EV vehicle, electrical vehicle, is growing quite fast, whereas the total car market is actually shrinking, which means that we are witnessing a transformation. Now on a global basis, the percentage of EV penetration is still relatively low. But in certain markets, the penetration is already very high with countries like Norway, where it had reached over 80 percent. So according to most of the accepted forecasts, by mid decade, 2025, there will be tens of millions of EVs sold annually, or certainly by the end of the decade, there will be in the key markets approaching 30, 40, maybe 50 percent in some places of the new cars being electrical vehicle. So there is a huge demand for lithium ion battery, which is the critical component in electrical vehicle, both from a point of view of securing the supply and from the point of view of achieving the cost targets. Simply put, the battery today is still the most expensive component of an EV, and you know that to reach the masses, i.e., to be able to enable people to afford buying electrical vehicle, batteries needed to become cheaper so that the cars can be made profitably and sold at a lower price.
VINCENT PLUVENAGE: 是的，所以眾所周知，無論是在美國、歐洲還是在中國，電動車、電動車的銷量成長都非常快，而整個汽車市場實際上卻在萎縮，這意味著我們正在見證一場變革。現在在全球範圍內，電動車的普及率仍然相對較低。但在某些市場，滲透率已經非常高，在挪威等國家已達到 80% 以上。因此，根據大多數公認的預測，到2025 年中期，每年將售出數千萬輛電動車，或者肯定到本十年末，主要市場的電動車銷量將接近 30%、40% 甚至 50%有些地方的新車是電動車。因此，無論是從保障供應的角度，還是從實現成本目標的角度來看，作為電動車關鍵零件的鋰離子電池都存在巨大的需求。簡而言之，今天的電池仍然是電動車中最昂貴的零件，而且你知道，為了讓大眾能夠買得起電動車，電池需要變得更便宜，這樣車輛才能盈利並以較低的價格出售。
MAURIZIO DI PAOLO EMILIO: Talking about batteries, so we could talk first about the second life. So can you explain a little bit what a second life battery is? So what are the benefits of using battery technologies in second life applications?
MAURIZIO DI PAOLO EMILIO： 談到電池，我們可以先談談二次電池。那麼你能解釋一下什麼是二次電池嗎？應用二次電池技術有什麼好處呢？
VINCENT PLUVENAGE: Yeah, so again, the key points about electrical vehicle can be summarized into two key topics that is of interest to most people. One topic has to be how do we make this vehicle a winner in terms of fighting climate change and reducing the carbon footprint? And I think that the second topic is how can we make batteries in a way that is responsible from a point of view of both natural resources, as well as all of the manufacturing processes that are going into it? So with respect to second life, I think that the key is that there is a lot of material that goes into lithium ion batteries. And at the end of the, during the life of a car, the battery progressively lose a little bit of its capacity to store energy. So after you have driven many miles over many years, a full charge will result in a battery that can deliver maybe 60, 70, 80 percent of the original energy storage when you first bought the car. And so why does that matter? Well, because then the question is what do you do with the battery at the end of the useful life of the battery in the EV? And many people are working on this, and I think that there is two specific meanings to the words second life. One is to recycle the battery to extract the original components, for example, the lithium, the graphite, the nickel, etc., so that it can be used to make new batteries. And that’s what people call circularity. The second is the ability to use those batteries in other applications, because when you charge and discharge a battery in a car, you of course want to ensure that you have as long as a range on the full charge as possible. But even a battery that has only retained 80 percent of its original capacity or 70 percent of its original capacity may be very useful in renewable energies, for example, in applications where the battery stores the electrical energy coming from solar panels or wind. And the reason is, those renewable sources of energy need energy storage, because they fluctuate during the day, and therefore we need to store the energy that is made for example with solar cells at noon so that that energy can be delivered to the grids in the middle of the night when people are recharging their EVs. And so batteries can have two types of second life, recycling and reuse.
VINCENT PLUVENAGE: 好的。關於電動車的關鍵點可以概括為大多數人感興趣的兩個關鍵主題。一個主題必須是我們如何使這款車在因應氣候變化和減少碳足跡方面成為贏家？我認為第二個主題是，我們如何以一種對自然資源以及所有製造過程負責的方式製造電池？所以關於二次電池，我認為關鍵是鋰離子電池有很多材料。在車輛使用壽命結束時，電池會逐漸失去一點儲存能量的能力。因此，在您多年行駛數英里後，充滿電後的電池可能會提供您第一次購買汽車時原始能量儲存的 60%、70%、80%。那麼這有什麼關係呢？好吧，因為問題是在 EV 電池的使用壽命結束時，您如何處理電池？很多人都在研究這個，我認為二次這個詞有兩個特定的含義。一種是回收電池，提取原始成分，例如鋰、石墨、鎳等，以便用於製造新電池。這就是人們所說的循環。第二個是在其他應用中使用這些電池的能力，因為當您在汽車中對電池進行充電和放電時，您當然希望確保盡可能長的充滿電的續航里程。但即使是僅保留其原始容量 80% 或原始容量 70% 的電池，在可再生能源中也可能非常有用，例如，在電池儲存來自太陽能電池板或風能的電能的應用中。原因是，那些可再生能源需要儲能，因為它們在白天會波動，因此我們需要在中午儲存太陽能電池等製造的能量，以便將能量輸送到電網人們在給電動車充電的深夜。所以電池可以有兩種類型的第二次生命，回收和再利用。
MAURIZIO DI PAOLO EMILIO: So your technology is using, uses special silicon nanowires to significantly improve graphite anodes, as well as increase the energy density, lifespan, and cost efficiency of electric vehicle batteries. So can you tell us what are your advantages, also in comparison with lithium ion batteries? So how are you solving the thermal problems, thermal management problems inside that, and what challenges does your Sinanode platform solve?
MAURIZIO DI PAOLO EMILIO: 所以你們的技術正在使用特殊的矽奈米線來顯著改善石墨陽極，並提高電動車電池的能量密度、壽命和成本效率。那麼，您能告訴我們您與鋰離子電池相較有哪些優勢嗎？那麼，您如何解決其中的熱問題、熱管理問題，以及您的Sinanode平台解決了哪些挑戰？
VINCENT PLUVENAGE: Yeah. So all of the EV batteries are lithium ion batteries, and for the rest of the decade, that’s going to remain the case, because there was a huge amount of factories being built or already built. Now when you charge the battery, you basically plug the car into the electrical grid, and you charge the electricity into the anode, which is made of graphite. And the electrons meet the lithium ion in the graphite in the anode, and that’s where the energy is stored. And then you unplug the car and you drive away, and the graphite releases the electrons and the lithium ion, and then you can just drive until the car is discharged. Now graphite is a very, very useful material. It’s already produced in huge quantities, millions of tons per year, and over the years, there’s been two types of graphite produced, natural graphite and synthetic graphite. In particular, the natural graphite comes from mines, and has a much lower carbon footprint, and is less expensive. One of the things that our technology does which is very unique is that we add silicon to the graphite, whether it’s synthetic graphite or natural graphite. And how do we do that, is that, is very, very special. We developed that over a decade and filed patents more than a decade ago. And so what we create is those little hair of silicon that can grow, for example, on the outside surface or inside the pores of natural or synthetic graphite. And when you do that, you accomplish three things. The first is that the amount of energy that can be stored is much higher. So by adding even a modest amount of silicon to the graphite in the way we do it, we can triple the amount of energy stored per kilogram of anode material. That means that the lithium ion first alloyed with the silicon in addition to continue and calculating in the graphite. And that means that you can have lighter batteries that have a longer range. I think the second thing that our technology does that is unique is that it increase charging speed. Because the little hair of silicon can essentially accept energy and release energy much faster than graphite, we have the ability to allow fast charging, about four times faster than the graphite. So the lithium alloys with the silicon nanowires at four times the speed, which means that you can recharge much faster, for example, from a 10 percent charge to a 80 percent charge, in a battery that incorporates our technology. And that’s very significant, because it means that people can stop and stay a lesser amount of time in a charging station, which is both convenient for them and convenient for the charging network, because you want the charging station to be available for as many customers as possible. And then the third thing we do, which is quite extraordinary, is that our manufacturing process is so efficient, is that we reduce costs, which means that by adding the silicon, even including all the costs related to our manufacturing process, the dollar per kilowatt hours that is necessary for building a lithium anode for EV batteries is far less, more than half, which means that this is a cost reduction. Also, by using natural graphite and adding our silicon, compared to the synthetic graphite that is imported, for example, in the United States from China, we can achieve a reduction in carbon footprint of the material that goes into the anode for EV batteries by over 70 percent. That’s very, very significant, because in one EV, you have as much as 70 kilograms of graphite. And if that graphite has been imported from China, that means it’s been transported all the way from China to United States. And in China, to make the artificial graphite, a lot of the electricity use comes from coal plants which have a very big carbon footprint. So the advantages are, number one, lighter batteries that can drive for longer range. Number two, faster charging. Number three, lower cost, and finally lower carbon footprint.
VINCENT PLUVENAGE: 是的。所以所有的電動車電池都是鋰離子電池，在接下來的十年裡，情況將一直如此，因為有大量的工廠正在建造或已經建造。現在，當您給電池充電時，您基本上將車輛連上電網，然後將電充電到由石墨製成的陽極。電子與陽極石墨中的鋰離子相遇，這就是能量儲存的地方。然後你把車拔掉，你就開走了，石墨釋放出電子和鋰離子，然後你就可以一直開到汽車放電為止。現在石墨是一種非常非常有用的材料。它已經大量生產，每年數百萬噸，多年來，生產的石墨有兩種，天然石墨和合成石墨。特別是，天然石墨來自礦山，碳足跡低得多，價格也便宜。我們的技術非常獨特的一件事是我們將矽添加到石墨中，無論是合成石墨還是天然石墨。我們如何做到這一點，是非常非常特別的。我們開發了十多年，並在十多年前申請了專利。所以我們創造的是那些可以生長的矽纖毛，例如，在天然或合成石墨的外表面或孔內。當你這樣做時，你完成了三件事。首先是可以儲存的能量要高得多。因此，通過以我們的方式在石墨中添加適量的矽，我們可以將每公斤陽極材料儲存的能量增加三倍。這意味著鋰離子首先與矽合金化，然後在石墨中繼續計算。這意味著您可以使用更輕、續航里程更長的電池。我認為我們的技術所做的第二件事是獨一無二的，它提高了充電速度。因為矽纖毛本質上可以比石墨更快地接受能量和釋放能量，所以我們有能力進行快速充電，大約是石墨的四倍。因此，鋰合金與矽奈米線的速度是四倍，這意味著您可以更快地充電，例如，在採用我們技術的電池中，從 10% 充電到 80% 充電。這非常重要，因為這意味著人們可以在充電站停留並停留更短的時間，這對他們來說既方便又方便充電網路，因為您希望充電站盡可能提供更多的客戶使用。然後我們做的第三件事，非常不同尋常的是，我們的製造過程效率非常高，我們降低了成本，這意味著透過添加矽，甚至包括與我們製造過程相關的所有成本，每美元為電動車電池製造鋰陽極所需的千瓦小時要少得多，超過一半，這意味著這是一種成本降低。此外，透過使用天然石墨並添加我們的矽，與從中國進口的合成石墨（例如，在美國從中國進口）相比，我們可以通過以下方式減少進入 EV 電池陽極的材料的碳足跡超過 70%。這是非常非常重要的，因為在一輛電動車中，你有多達 70 公斤的石墨。如果石墨是從中國進口的，那就意味著它是從中國一路運到美國的。而在中國，為了製造人造石墨，大量的電力來自碳足跡非常大的燃煤電廠。所以優勢是，第一，更輕的電池可以行駛更遠的距離。第二，更快的充電。第三，降低成本，最後降低碳足跡。
MAURIZIO DI PAOLO EMILIO: Talking about electric vehicles and battery, we cannot talk about scaling and the supply chain. So what about scaling and the supply chain limitations problems? So from a material perspective, what trends are you seeing, notice in the supply chain for EV?
MAURIZIO DI PAOLO EMILIO: 談到電動車和電池，我們不能談規模化和供應鏈。那麼擴產和供應鏈限制問題呢？那麼從材料的角度來看，你看到了電動車供應鏈中的哪些趨勢？
VINCENT PLUVENAGE: You know, I’m so glad you asked this question, Maurizio, because that’s probably the most important question right now on the mind of all of our customers, the OEM, the people making cars. We all know that supply chains are very tricky, because you need to ramp up volume to very huge quantities. And there is three things that are difficult for the OEMs. Not only they have to secure the manufacturing capacity for making batteries, but they have to go upstream from that in securing all the material that goes into those batteries many years in advance. So I think that the three trends that I would like to point out. One is what I call vertical integration. All of the OEMs, whether it’s Tesla, the GM, VW, you can read it in the news, have all taken upon themself to entering into long term contract to supply both the manufacturing of EV cells and the manufacturing of material that goes into those EV cells for many years to come. The second trend that is obvious is the OEM want to be able to source both material and batteries in each of the key markets. Batteries are expensive but also heavy, and moving them around the world is not optimum from a cost perspective. So all of the global chain strategies involve what I call localization. That means localization of supply in China, localization of supply in United States, and localization of supply in Europe. And I think that the last and most important trend is what I call reducing risks. And reducing risk means to be able to rely on multiple suppliers. Now how does OneD addresses this? Well, we address these challenges in a very unique way that none of our competitors can match. The first piece is that we don’t try to replace graphite. We actually enhance the supply of EV grade graphite already being produced by a number of leading suppliers. The number two is that we can do that not with one graphite supplier but with many graphite suppliers, which means that you can have a couple of, for example, large suppliers in United States, and we add silicon to their powders to basically enhance the anode material, and we can do the same in Europe and in Asia. That really reduced the risk. And the final and most important part is that because we started 15 years ago, we have over 245 granted patents around the world. That means as a technology provider, we have enough IP in terms of granted patents, more than our competitors combined, that we can have a large scale licensing model. So we have designed a pilot plant where we make available to our customers small factories to process the graphite of their choice and add silicon for the EV battery qualification, which takes a couple of years and requires many many tons to make tens, maybe five, ten thousand battery pack for commercial qualification. But then the next step, we actually can rely on partners that are large, established, proven industrial companies, which have the expertise to really deliver large scale processing plant for let’s say 10,000 ton, 20,000 tons. And we don’t pretend we’re going to build that ourselves. We actually enable that through our licensing program. And that reduces the risk to all of our customers both in terms of execution risk and also cost of capital. Now there is a good analogy in the semiconductor business to be mentioned. You know, that Intel for many decades is making microprocessors. And they not only designed the microprocessors, but they made their own foundries to produce those microprocessors. Now in the world of microprocessor, there is another model, and the other model was started many decades ago by a small company called ARM in the UK. And ARM had designed the building block of microprocessors in what’s called the ARM IP Foundations. And they call that, for example, Cortex, or other names. They made that available to many companies around the world, for example, companies like Nvidia or companies like Apple. Apple then can design its own microprocessor, which they call Apple Silicon, which takes into account the IP provided by ARM, but also all the knowledge that Apple has of how the user use its software on its laptop and iPad. And then when it’s time to manufacture, Apple can then take out the design of the microprocessor to TSMC in Taiwan, which is the world leading foundry. That model has proven to be the most efficient, and everybody in the computer industry knows that Apple replaced an Intel COMPUTER by the Apple silicon, which is basically based on licensing the IP from ARM and manufacturing at TSMC. That is exactly our business model. So in addition to technology advantage and cost advantage, we also have a business model advantage which is very appreciated by our customers.
VINCENT PLUVENAGE: 我很高興你問了這個問題，Maurizio，因為這可能是我們所有客戶、OEM 和製造汽車的人現在最重要的問題。我們都知道供應鏈非常棘手，因為您需要將數量增加到非常大。對於OEM 來說，有三件事是困難的。他們不僅必須確保製造電池的製造能力，而且還必須提前多年確保進入這些電池的所有材料。所以我認為我想指出三個趨勢。一種是我所說的垂直整合。你可以在新聞看到，所有的原始設備製造商，無論是特斯拉、通用汽車、福斯，都已經為未來許多年的電動車電池和材料的生產供應簽訂了長期契約。第二個明顯的趨勢是 OEM 希望能夠在每個關鍵市場採購材料和電池。電池價格昂貴但也很重，從成本的角度來看，將它們移動到世界各地並不是最佳選擇。所以所有的全球連鎖戰略都涉及到我所說的本地化。也就是中國供應本地化，美國供應本地化，歐洲供應本地化。我認為最後一個也是最重要的趨勢是我所說的降低風險。降低風險意味著能夠依賴多個供應商。現在OneD如何解決這個問題？好吧，我們以一種非常獨特的方式因應這些挑戰，我們的競爭對手都無法與之匹敵。第一點是我們不試圖取代石墨。我們實際上增加了一些領先供應商已經生產的 EV 級石墨的供應。第二，我們可以做到這一點，而不是與一個石墨供應商，而是與許多石墨供應商，這意味著你可以有幾個，例如美國的大型供應商，我們在他們的粉末中添加矽，以基本上提高陽極材料，我們可以在歐洲和亞洲做同樣的事情。這確實降低了風險。最後也是最重要的部分是，因為我們從 15 年前開始，我們在全球擁有超過 245 項授權專利。這意味著作為技術提供商，我們在授權專利方面擁有足夠的知識產權，比我們的競爭對手加起來還要多，我們可以擁有大規模的授權模式。因此，我們設計了一個試點工廠，讓我們的客戶可以使用小型工廠來加工他們選擇的石墨，並添加矽來進行電動車電池認證，這需要幾年時間，需要很多噸才能生產幾十萬個電池組進行商業化認證。但下一步，我們實際上可以依靠大型、成熟的工業公司合作夥伴，這些公司擁有真正交付大型加工廠的專業知識，比如說 10,000 噸，20,000 噸。而且我們不會假裝我們要自己建造它。我們實際上透過我們的授權計劃實現了這一點。這降低了我們所有客戶在執行風險和資本成本方面的風險。現在在半導體業務中有一個很好的比喻。你知道，英特爾幾十年來一直在製造微處理器，他們不僅設計了微處理器，還建立了自己的晶圓廠來生產這些微處理器。但如今在微處理器的世界裡，還有另一種模式，是幾十年前由英國一家名為ARM的小公司開創的。 ARM 在所謂的 ARM IP Foundations 中設計了微處理器的功能區塊。例如，他們稱之為 Cortex 或其他名稱。他們將這一點提供給世界各地的許多公司，例如像 Nvidia 這樣的公司或像 Apple 這樣的公司。然後，Apple 可以設計自己的微處理器，他們稱之為 Apple Silicon，它考慮了 ARM 提供的 IP，以及 Apple 所擁有的關於用戶如何在其筆記型電腦和 iPad 上使用其軟體的所有知識。然後到了生產的時候，Apple就可以把微處理器設計交給世界領先的晶圓代工廠，台灣的台積電。該模式已被證明是最有效的，電腦產業的每個人都知道，Apple 用 Apple 晶片取代了英特爾電腦晶片，這基本上是基於 ARM 的 IP授權和台積電製造。這正是我們的商業模式。所以除了技術優勢和成本優勢外，我們還有商業模式優勢，深受客戶好評。
MAURIZIO DI PAOLO EMILIO: Talking about technologies, quantum and artificial intelligence would be very interesting, will help the chemistry of the batteries in the next future. So what do you think? Are there R&D projects that are involving quantum and AI?
MAURIZIO DI PAOLO EMILIO: 談到技術，量子和人工智慧將非常有趣，將有助於未來電池的化學。那麼您怎麼看？有沒有涉及量子和人工智慧的研發項目？
VINCENT PLUVENAGE: Well, let me talk about AI, because that’s a very interesting topic. You know, when you assemble the design of a new EV cell, you need to put together a technology stack which includes many different parameters. Some have to do with the cathode material, others with the anode material, others with the electrolyte, and then the dimension, the manufacturing processes, etc. etc. And then you need to optimize that design for the specific application, for example, a high end car or middle of the range car, etc., which have different characteristics. Well, today, a lot of the design used to be based on reading information that resided in the cell makers. But what happened about ten years ago, which is really a revolution in the world of batteries, is that Tesla started collecting data on all of the cells in every car they sold, which means that when I have my Tesla, I drive it differently than you or somebody else in Europe, on different roads, in different weather, and I recharge it in a different way, which means that the dozens thousand of cells in my battery pack get discharged and recharged differently during those different driving conditions and charging cycles. All of that data is uploaded up in the air in the clouds and analyzed. Now if you have about a dozen thousand cells, for example, in one EV, and you have a million EVs on the road, that means you have a billion cell data per day, which means you have in a third of a year hundred billion data points about how those cells discharge and recharge. And then you can you AI to mine that data, and that mining has two effects. First, you can push update the battery management systems so that even a year after purchasing my Tesla, it will drive better. And the second piece is that when you design the next generation, you have information that is unbelievably valuable for the next design. Now Tesla is not the only one in doing that. We know that VW and Porsche and GM and others are also planning to have over the air updates and to collect the information from all of its customers. So the trend is the following. Data is gold, and battery data is even more important, because you need to really optimize the design, not only for yield and cost but for long term performance, safety, and reliability. And at the end of the day, it’s just like in search engine. The search engine of Google exceeded the performance of the Yahoo search engine because Google was able to essentially improve its algorithm using a ton of traffic. And as the traffic increases, the ability to be using AI to optimize also increases. And we call that a network effect. So the role of software in AI in battery design, in battery production, is only beginning and will continue to increase for the rest of the decade.
VINCENT PLUVENAGE: 讓我談談人工智慧，因為這是一個非常有趣的話題。你知道，當你組裝一個新的電動車電池的設計時，你需要組合一個包含許多不同參數的技術堆疊。有些與正極材料有關，有些與負極材料有關，有些與電解質有關，然後是尺寸、製程等。然後需要針對特定應用最佳化該設計，例如，高階車或中階車等，具有不同的特點。好吧，今天，很多設計過去都是基於讀取駐留在電池製造商中的訊息。但是大約十年前發生的事情，這確實是電池世界的一場革命，特斯拉開始收集他們出售的每輛汽車中所有電池的數據，這意味著當我擁有特斯拉時，我駕駛它的方式與你或歐洲的其他人，在不同的道路上，在不同的天氣，我以不同的方式給它充電，這意味著在這些不同的駕駛條件和充電週期中，我的電池組中的數千個電池以不同的方式放電和充電。所有這些數據都上傳到雲端並進行分析。現在，如果你有大約一萬個電池芯在一輛 EV 中，而你有 100 萬輛 EV 在路上，這意味著你每天有10 億個電池芯數據，這意味著你在一年的三分之一時間內擁有千億有關這些電池如何放電和充電的數據點。然後你可以用人工智慧來挖掘數據，挖掘有兩個效果。首先，您可以推送更新電池管理系統，這樣即使在購買我的特斯拉一年後，它的駕駛性能也會更好。第二點是，當您設計下一代時，您擁有的資訊對於下一代設計具有難以置信的價值。現在特斯拉並不是唯一這樣做的人。我們知道，福斯、保時捷、通用和其他公司也計劃進行無線更新並從所有客戶那裡收集資訊。所以趨勢如下。數據是黃金，電池數據更重要，因為您需要真正優化設計，不僅要考慮良率和成本，還要考慮長期性能、安全性和可靠性。歸根究柢，這就像在搜尋引擎中一樣。Google的搜尋引擎超越了Yahoo搜尋引擎的性能，因為Google能夠使用大量流量從本質上改進其演算法。隨著流量的增加，使用人工智慧進行優化的能力也在增加。我們稱之為網路效應。因此，人工智慧在電池設計和電池生產中的作用才剛剛開始，並將在接下來的十年中繼續增加。
MAURIZIO DI PAOLO EMILIO: For sure. Electric transportation is revolutionizing mobility in a way that we have never seen before. Infrastructure will be the next challenge that we will have to face. Clean energy, but energy storage to compensate the period of no energy, as you mentioned. What are the biggest priorities in radically expanding electric vehicle charging infrastructure and related technologies and meeting or surpassing targets? So when consumers are considering electric vehicles for purchase today, what limitation, what electric vehicle limitation do you think hamper people from making a purchase?
MAURIZIO DI PAOLO EMILIO: 確實。電動交通工具正在以我們從未見過的方式徹底改變交通方式。基礎設施將是我們必鬚麵對的下一個挑戰。正如你提到的，潔淨能源，但能量儲存以補償無能源時期。在從根本上擴展電動車充電基礎設施和相關技術以及達到或超越目標的最大優先事項是什麼？那麼，當消費者今天在考慮購買電動車時，您認為哪些限制、哪些電動車限制會阻礙人們購買？
VINCENT PLUVENAGE: So I think that the key points, if you’re going to transform a large percentage of the transportation from ICE to EV is basically price and availability. And price means that energy cost needs to be affordable, which means that the amount of energy that is produced from all sources, both for clo natural gas and nuclear and solar and wind, for it to be available to manufacture batteries, manufacturing cars, and provide enough energy in a charging network at an affordable cost. So that’s the first piece. The second piece is of course availability means that the number of charging stations and the efficiency of those charging stations must increase. The number means designing enough charging stations and building them so that more and more users can on one charge go around their business and when they need it recharge, which has to do with both the length of travel on one charge, which is called the range, and also the density of the network, which is accessibility, and number three, the convenience, which is how long you need to stop to recharge. And those three factors really determine the acceptability of coverage, if you wish, of the charging network. We will see a lot of different models to do that, all the way from recharging in parking lots to recharging on the road, recharging at home, etc., etc. I think that this will be progressive. It will not happen at once. But it’s doable. And of course this requires a long term energy policy and a infrastructure policy in each of the key markets.
VINCENT PLUVENAGE: 所以我認為如果你要將大部分交通工具從內燃機引擎轉變為 EV，基本上關鍵點是價格和可用性。價格意味著能源成本必須是負擔得起的，這意味著從所有來源產生的能源量，包括天然氣、核能、太陽能和風能，才能用於製造電池、製造汽車和以可承受的成本在充電網路中提供足夠的能量。所以這是第一塊。第二部分當然是可用性意味著充電站的數量和這些充電站的效率必須增加。這個數字意味著設計和建造足夠多的充電站，以便越來越多的用戶一次充電就可以完成他們的業務，並在他們需要充電時進行充電，這與一次充電的旅行長度有關，這被稱為續航里程，以及網路的密度，即可訪問性，第三，便利性，即您需要停止充電多長時間。如果您願意，這三個因素確實決定了充電網路的覆蓋範圍的可接受性。我們會看到很多不同的模式來做到這一點，從在停車場充電到在路上充電，再到在家充電等等。我認為這將是漸進的。它不會一下子發生。但這是可行的。當然，這需要在每個關鍵市場製定長期的能源政策和基礎設施政策。
MAURIZIO DI PAOLO EMILIO: So Vincent, my last one. We are in conclusion. What’s next from your technology?
MAURIZIO DI PAOLO EMILIO: 所以Vincent，我的最後一個問題是，我們已經進入結論，您們的技術開發下一步是什麼？
VINCENT PLUVENAGE: Well, I think we will be announcing some very interesting news about OneD and its adoptions by OEMs, and we look forward to doing so. I think that our technology is the leading technology in silicon anode because it has the highest performance, it has the lowest cost, and it’s the most scalable thanks to our IP and our licensing business model. But we also need to be realistic. There is no one size fit all, and in order to make this available to a large number of customers and to progress in the performance metrics and the cost metrics will take years, because as in any large scale manufacturing, there is what’s called learning curve. And learning curve is step by step improving design and improving production so that performance keeps going up and cost keeps coming down. And we look forward to that.
VINCENT PLUVENAGE: 我認為我們將宣布一些關於OneD及其被 OEM 採用的非常有趣的消息，我們期待這樣做。我認為我們的技術是矽陽極的領先技術，因為它具有最高的性能、最低的成本，並且由於我們的 IP 和我們的授權商業模式，它是最具可擴展性的。但我們也需要現實一點。沒有一種適合所有人的方法，為了讓大量客戶可以使用它並在性能指標和成本指標方面取得進展，需要數年時間，因為與任何大規模製造一樣，存在所謂的學習曲線.學習曲線是一步一步改進設計和改進生產，使性能不斷提高，成本不斷下降。我們期待著這一點。
MAURIZIO DI PAOLO EMILIO: Thank you, Vincent. Thanks for joining us at PowerUp Podcast. Thank you.
MAURIZIO DI PAOLO EMILIO: 謝謝你，Vincent。感謝您加入我們的PowerUp Podcast。謝謝你。
VINCENT PLUVENAGE: Thank you.
VINCENT PLUVENAGE: 謝謝。
MAURIZIO DI PAOLO EMILIO: Thank you, Vincent. So the key points about electric vehicles can be summarized into two key topics that are of interest to most people. One topic has to be how do we make these vehicles a winner in terms of fighting climate change and reducing the carbon footprint? And the second topic is how can we make batteries in a way that is responsible from a point of view of both natural resources as well as all of the manufacturing processes? According to Vincent, Sinanode technology does increase the charging speed, because the little hair of silicon can essentially accept energy and release energy much faster than in graphite. They have the ability to allow fast charging about four times faster than graphite. Three things that are difficult for the OEMs are not only that they have to secure the manufacturing capacity for making batteries, but they have to go upstream from that and secure all the material that goes into those batteries many years in advance. So he thinks that there are three trends. One is called vertical integration, entering into long term contracts to supply both the manufacturing of EV cells and the manufacturing of materials that goes into those cells for many years to come. The second trend is that OEMs want to be able to source both material and batteries in each of the key markets. And the last and the most important trends, according to Vincent, is what he calls reducing risks, and reducing risk means to be able to rely on multiple suppliers. Through all the software and AI and battery design and battery production is only beginning, and will continue to increase for the rest of the decade. He thinks that the key points from ICE to EV is basically price and availability, and price means that energy cost needs to be affordable. The second piece is of course mobility. It means that the number of charging stations and the efficiency of those charging stations must increase. Vincent is going to announce some very interesting news about OneD and its adoption by OEMs.
MAURIZIO DI PAOLO EMILIO: 謝謝 Vincent.。因此，關於電動車的關鍵點可以概括為大多數人感興趣的兩個關鍵主題。一個主題必須是我們如何使這些車輛在因應氣候變遷和減少碳足跡方面成為贏家？第二個主題是，我們如何才能以對自然資源和所有製造過程都負責的方式製造電池？據 Vincent 介紹， Sinanode技術確實提高了充電速度，因為矽纖毛本質上可以比石墨更快地接受能量並釋放能量。它們能夠實現比石墨快四倍的快速充電。對於 OEM 來說，困難的三件事不僅是他們必須確保製造電池的製造能力，而且他們必須從上游進入並提前多年確保進入這些電池的所有材料。所以他認為有三種趨勢。一種稱為垂直整合，簽訂長期合約，供應電動車電池的製造和未來許多年進入這些電池的材料的製造。第二個趨勢是OEM希望能夠在每個關鍵市場採購材料和電池。根據 Vincent 的說法，最後也是最重要的趨勢是他所說的降低風險，降低風險意味著能夠依賴多供應商。透過所有的軟體和人工智慧，電池設計和電池生產才剛剛開始，並將在接下來的十年中繼續增加。他認為從 ICE轉向EV 的關鍵點基本上是價格和可用性，而價格意味著能源成本需要負擔得起。第二部分當然是移動性。這意味著必須增加充電站的數量和充電站的效率。 Vincent 將宣布一些關於OneD及其被 OEM 採用的非常有趣的消息。